Kassa Overall is a jazz drummer, producer, rapper and bandleader from Seattle and New York City.
Out with his third album, Animals, Kassa sat down on KAXE’s New Music program to talk all things jazz and taking a look inward. He even took a question from a curious 6-year-old.
He’s playing at Icehouse in Minneapolis on Thursday, Sept. 28.
Interview transcript
This was edited for length and clarity.
Kari Hedlund
I'm Kari Hedlund and this is New Music on KAXE. Kassa Overall has a new album out now, Animals. Welcome Kassa, thanks for being with us.
Kassa Overall
Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.
Kari
Let's start off by talking about the new record as a whole. Now I know what I think it covers, but I want to hear it from you please.
Kassa
Well, I think about my albums as … they're like episodes in a long chronicle, like Star Wars or Harry Potter or something. I never read Harry Potter, but all the albums are supposed to kind of go together as, like, different stages. And this is just the next stage of my life. So it ties into themes from the last albums, things that I went through personally, but it also tries to move past it as well.
The last album, I Think I'm Good, was very much internal and that was about me and my own personal struggles. And this album, it's the same thing, but it's the from the perspective of everybody else as well, because over the past three years, I came to learn that we all have insane mental things that we're going through.
There's just some of us that it looks a little more extreme for, but even your most well put-together person has their own internal conflict. So this one is more humanitarian, I guess, or a little more outwardly focused. Even though it's about me, it's thinking about everybody else as well.
Kari
Do you think part of that was because your trajectory has increased over the years, you're more in the public eye? Does that play into that sort of shift in perspective?
Kassa
Definitely. I think that that's also a second, would you say like a sub-narrative? I'm not doing good with words today. It's like another side topic throughout the album. I'm extrovert-slash-introvert. You know what I mean? I'm bright and running around at the party and this and that, but I'm also in the bed, and I don't even want to go at all.
And so to have a little bit of success with music and people to kind of know me already, it kind of changes the perspective. It makes you think about survival doing this thing, like, well, what if you can't keep that thing going? Like, what else would you do?
I don't know if I'm answering these questions directly, but quite a few years ago I went through a situation and I told my dad I thought I lost my mojo, right? I couldn't play good in my opinion and it just felt like it wasn't there, and that was one of the most terrifying moments of my life because the only thing I ever did was music. So if it's not this, what else am I going to do?
And I think that present day I'm faced with that same conflict, but a little more so like, well, what if I don't want to do it like this? What if I decide that I don't want commerce and capitalism to be directly tied to my very personal creative process? What do I do, you know?
Kari
What do you do? Did you answer that?
Kassa
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. Learn how to trade stocks, I guess? I will say this, I think that one thing I've developed over the years is a pretty strong work ethic, self-motivation and discipline. I think to play music or to do any kind of personal art type work, it requires a lot of time. Nobody's going to tell you to clean your room, so to speak, with music. Only you know if your left hand isn't as good as your right on the drum set.
I realize it's really hard to find people that can really apply themselves to things, so I think that if I had to do something else, I would have the skill set of like, let me figure this out and the enthusiasm of let me get good at this. It's not as bleak as it might feel sometimes.
Kari
We're talking with Kassa Overall. He has a new album out now, Animals. I'm going to preface this next one, Kassa, by saying that with my work and who I am, my kids hear a lot of music that is probably not typical kid music. That said, the first time my 6-year-old heard “So Happy” on the album, she started singing along and said, “I love this song!” Since then, it has been like on repeat many, many times at our house, in the car, all the things.
(Few bars of “So Happy” from Animals)
Kari
Her name is Signe and she had me record a comment and question for you.
Signe
I love your songs. I love when you say...
Kari
Which song is your favorite?
Signe
“So Happy.” I love when you say, “I don't wanna be alive, I don't wanna be dead,” and I like when you say, “I'm not meant to be a puppet or a fool.” How much people do you have in your song “So Happy”?
Kari
We're going to work with her on not chewing her gum while she is interviewing people ...
Kassa
It has a personality! I didn't catch the last part of the question. What was the question?
Kari
She's very curious about how many people are on the song because she knows your voice, then she hears Laura's voice, and then she's just like, “Now who's this? Who's this? How many people are in here?” So she's very in tune with what is going on.
Kassa
Uh huh. OK, so first I'll answer the question. And then I'll respond to the comments because I have a few thoughts. On the front line of the song, you have me doing vocals, you have Laura Mvula, who is the first singer.
And then you have Francis and the Lights, who is one person, however, his artist name is Francis and the Lights. And he's the one at the end where he goes ,”Little more, little more, little more, little more please.” That's Francis. And so Francis actually started this song with the piano chordal progression. He sent me that many years ago and then a great pianist named Mike King played that piano part on an acoustic piano.
And then you have another piano player named Big Yuki who played the synth bass part. So on the chorus, the part that she likes, there's this crazy (mimics guitar sounds) — that's Big Yuki. I played live drums. I did the electronic drum production. Let me think. What else do we got? Oh, and then Jerrick Bischoff. Who is an amazing string player, composer, arranger, wrote all the string parts to go with that. That took the song from like (a) “good song” to like Chronicles of Narnia magic.
And I'm sure there may even be a few more people, but that's a really good question. I think that a lot of people are curious about that because the way I work, it's kind of like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, and figuring out how to piece all the pieces together. So that's a good question. Thank you for digging the song!
It also makes me think of something else because when I make a song like that, I'm often almost worried that a kid will hear it and not understand it or take it the wrong way. But when you're working on art, sometimes you really don't want to let that editor get in the way. You know the person is saying, “You shouldn't say that because maybe your mom won't like it!”
I'll have those thoughts and then I'll say well, they gotta know. And the last thing I'll say is I remember being young. And it was some of the most metaphysical spiritual times where I was asking crazy questions about existence. Are we really alive or is this a dream? And then we wake up and you know what I mean? I think it's really cool that she can get into it and maybe it's not too complicated.
Kari
It's not! The first time she heard it and was talking about that line, “I don't want to be alive. I don't want to be dead,” she goes, “He wants to be a zombie?”
Kassa
Yeah, I mean that's a good way of looking at it. And maybe it's not that I want to be a zombie, but maybe I'm saying I feel in between, you know. I feel in this place where I don't know how to explain it. So, that's a great observation.
Kari
We're going to talk about the Danny Brown track next, a “Clock Ticking,” so good. This might seem like an oversimplified question to a jazz musician, but when you collaborate with vocalists or rappers, do you write their verses? Do you give them a rough idea of the song? Do you just let them go? What do you do here?
Kassa
I never write a rapper's verse. I think when you come from the hip-hop tradition, it's really a lot more autobiographical in nature. If you're writing a song, a melodic song for somebody, that's very common and there's a whole history of great songwriters from Motown and all of that. But when it came to hip-hop, the way it kind of came to be, this is the way I understand it, was much more this personal thing. And there was a lot of competition, so there was a lot of “what can you come up with” versus “what can they come up with,” and who has the better thing, you know.
So if you have somebody else writing your lyrics, you're not really in the competition. Now there are obviously many exceptions to the rule. There's a lot of great producer-rappers like Dr. Dre or Kanye or Puff Daddy, known to not write all their lyrics. Generally, if you're an MC, a lot of times it's like you got to write your own stuff. To add to that, if I get somebody on a track, it's usually somebody that I'm a fan of and I'm like, I want to see where they're going to take it, you know?
(Few bars of “Clock Ticking”)
Kari
I know that “the process” gets to be a bit of a cumbersome thing to talk about, but you are so fascinating to me and the way that you put your music together. You kind of referenced it a little bit, that Francis and the Light sent you that piano piece years ago. I want to talk a little bit about how you do this and the time involved in creating your songs and music. How do you categorize your pieces that you want to use at some point and then remember where it's saved at? I have a hard enough time with my photos on my phone! Talk a little bit about this.
Kassa
It's the same issue that you have a phone with photos or anything, you know what I mean? It's the same thing and I'm not the guy to ask about ...
Kari
Organizational tips?
Kassa
No, no. The secret for me is to make so many things, that the ones that you stumble on are good enough. My partner, my girlfriend, my collaborator, Lauren Du Graf — a few weeks ago we went through a bunch of my hard drives and made a spreadsheet. And we just listened to like 100 tracks, and we kind of put a little note. We picked the ones that were like, “Yeah, that one. That one.” And put a little note if it was any good or if there was a bit there. So there is actually a little bit of a system and that has helped.
But still, we did all of that, and then I went through my phone and some other stuff and I found all these other joints that were better than all of those! So I just try to make a ton of stuff and once you find one or two joints that you know are going on the album, you put those in some folder and upload them to Google Drive and save them like 10 different places. Yeah, it sucks.
Kari
You piecemeal all these together over years, right?
Kassa
Yeah. That line I was talking about with Francis in January 2017, I sent him a text message and said, “I'm finally doing it. I'm making my jazz album/everything else album. Send me anything.” Because at the time, I had some studio time and a bunch of great musicians just kind of coming through for a few hours and playing over sketches. So I asked them to send me anything and he sent me that.
I had Aaron Parks and Joe Dyson play on it and for those who don't know, Aaron Parks is one of the great piano players of our time. He's playing at the Village Vanguard next week. And then Joe Dyson is one of the most in-demand drummers of our time. And so what they played was great, but I couldn't figure out how to make it work. I couldn't turn it into a song. So I just put that on a hard drive somewhere.
And then a few years later, I tried again and did this whole production thing over the Francis line that didn't work. And then in 2021, I had Mike King replay the piano line on a real piano, and that's what became this. So sometimes it doesn't work and you keep trying. You're like, “Oh, I know it's a good line from Francis, I really want to use this, but this sucks.” And then sometimes, once you have an album, you got eight tracks. Maybe you need three or four more, and you might just do one thing in the studio and it just works and you don't really have to add a lot to it.
So it's not every track, but as far as the process, it’s like in science class where they show you the soil and all the different years of different color ...
Kari
Geological?
Kassa
Yeah, it's like this 300 years ago. That's kind of how the music set looks. That's how the music looks to me. And I think the way I get that is just by continuously revamping, remixing and refining what something needs overtime. You can't rest.
Kari
So in doing it that way, is it hard to cut it off to be like, “It's done?” How do you know when it's complete?
Kassa
Yeah, yes and no. You get to this point where you feel like it's done. But then, maybe in the context of the album you realize it's not. Like compared to this other song, it's missing something. I've always loved albums versus singles, and we have the playlist economy and the single-driven streaming market. So you’ve got to make hot songs, but that's not what I'm making. I'm not even, that's not even the art. The piece of art is this 40-minute movie. I even sometimes make a few things a little bit uncomfortable, where if you put it on the playlist, it's like (makes abrupt sound).
Kari
You're making radio DJ's jobs hard!
Kassa
I didn't mean to, you know! I did at the same time, ‘cause I just really think that the experience of putting on a whole album and driving around, or walking around, or getting on the subway and going through your day, it's such a good experience as a listener. You can really learn something, like reading a book.
I'll be hanging out with somebody, maybe another musician and somebody in my band, and when I get the aux(iliary) plug, I always put a whole album on. They'll be like, “Yo, what is this?” You know, “It's Little Sims’ new album, yo! It's Track 7. This is crazy.” It's such a better experience, so I try to keep that alive in the way I make and consume.
Kari
This has been going through my brain a lot lately because I feel like I've always been an album-oriented fan. I kind of got lost a little bit from that and recently I've been diving back in the way of listening to an album in its entirety, multiple times, just to really get the feel for the album. And it has really been a weirdly delayed “aha moment” of single culture doing artists a disservice by not listening to it in its entirety.
Because in all of this work, there's a time stamp for this artist. So much work goes into creating this thing as a whole, and yet, we're just getting these little snippets of it in life. And then there's always the tracks that don’t hit you right away. Then like the eighth listen in, you're feeling more like, “That's so good!”
Kassa
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it's also a difficult art, too, so you can really see the artist that can do that, and the artist that can't really do that and that's OK! You got sprinters, you got long distance runners, you got people that do both. It's all good. For me, I'm looking for that movie experience.
Kari
We're talking with Kassa Overall on KAXE. He has a new album out now called Animals. Kassa, you were more of a, let's say, straight jazz musician before releasing your 2019 album Go Get Ice Cream and Listen to Jazz, where you more strongly tied in your beat making. What made you decide to intertwine the two in a more real way?
Kassa
It was actually frustration. First off, even when I was more of a jazz musician, a drummer, I was quite an avant-garde-ist. I played with a lot of free cats, because you have many different worlds within that world, right? But to answer the question directly, I was already putting out songs where I was rapping and making beats and things like that, but I wasn't incorporating my live drums. I wasn't bringing in musicians from my other world to be a part of it. It was like these two different worlds that I had separated.
I realized that it was confusing the marketplace because I would have a music video online, where we're in the backyard in Brooklyn, smoking weed and drinking and partying and just being young and having fun. And then I go on tour and I'm playing drums in somebody's band, wearing a suit, doing the whole song and dance for the kind of upper crust jazz lovers. People would be confused because maybe I took a good drum solo on tour and then they go look me up online and I'm in the backyard going crazy, you know, or vice versa.
I gained fans online from the music video, then they come to see me play and (they’re) feeling it's like snooty in this jazz club. And they're like, “What is this?” And so, both of those worlds, it's all good, but eventually I had to think about what is really me in the middle of all this? I wasn't really fully all the way, turn-up energy, and I also wasn't “wear the suit guy,” you know? It was somewhere in between.
Part of it was branding, like if I'm gonna be Kassa Overall, it can't be two Kassa Overalls. It really has to be one person. And what is that one person? Well, it's partially this, it's partially that. And the more you get in touch with what you're really trying to say and what your music really sounds like, you can pull those worlds into your world. And that's your world. You.
Kari
Know on the note of jazz, I was just listening to Questlove's podcast the other day where he was talking to Christian McBride, and Questlove was saying that jazz is the most argued about and controversial genre there is. And I was also thinking like, “Yeah, and probably the most misunderstood.” Not misunderstood, more “not understood,” maybe?
Kassa
Yeah, yeah.
Kari
Do you agree with that statement?
Kassa
I think the misunderstood part, and the argued about part, are kind of like, I'm not really interested in. Meaning like, I'm not interested in somebody's argument over something that I'm very clear about in my own heart. If you were some type of religion or whatever, you're not going to be up in the religious studies class trying to be all debating about it. You're like, “No, I'm praying, this is what it is.”
So when it comes to the music for me, I know what it is. I don't need to convince anybody. But I think when you said, “not understood,” that is an interesting thing. Because if you think about quantum physics, or you think about some of the most complicated philosophy out there — to even have the conversation, to even be in the conversation with this, in trying to take this theory of relativity further or disprove it or whatever — to even do all that, you gotta study it your whole life to even understand it enough to talk about it.
Kari
That's a really good point.
Kassa
So with that being said. I think it's like, people aren't supposed to understand it. It's not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be something that you apply, as a listener you have to apply yourself to it. Even me personally, I went to see what's probably my favorite living pianist, one of my favorite pianists ever of all time, Sullivan Fortner. We went to college together. He played at the Village Vanguard last night. I've been out on the road touring and I haven't been seeing those shows that require a lot, right? And even by the end of that set, because I haven't been in New York going to shows constantly and getting all focused, I was tired by the end! I gotta get my chops up, you know, I gotta get back in shape as a listener.
That's what I think about with jazz. In terms of jazz for me, I'm talking about the intellectual-slash-spiritual seeking, improvisational music, based in an African rhythmic DNA. I think that jazz also incorporates so much different stuff. So I'm really talking about a certain kind of music where you're taking it as far as you can as a human.
Kari
We've been talking with Kassa Overall. He has a new album out now, Animals. You can check out this entire conversation with Kassa at kaxe.org. Thank you so much for your time and for the conversation, and for your music.
Kassa
Oh yeah, thank you for having me. It's been great talking. I hope it wasn't too oblong.
